For one thing, a distinction must be, and to a large extent is, made between religious values *guiding* political decision-making, and state-sponsored religion. If religious observance were mandated? Not cool. If one’s religion says that abortion is murder, and thus one feels the need to outlaw it? Acceptable – it would be absurd to outlaw religion as a source of morals. (And to make things perfectly clear, I am not anti-abortion.)
Now it still is possible that an abundance of religion-inspired policies could lead to a suboptimal state for our country. I would agree, inasmuch as I don’t subscribe to all of the views of the religious right. However, this does not necessarily equate to “fascism”. To quote Webster’s New World Dictionary (second college edition), “fascism” is “a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized government control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, etc.” I think it’s hard to make a reasonable argument that the United States fits this description. To go through step by step:
“rigid one-party dictatorship” – The US is not a one-party state by any means. While the right certainly would like to gain dominance, so would the left. And while one might quibble with the President’s policies, our system of government, with all of its checks and balances, is hardly a dictatorship, nor is a drastic change in the system imminent.
“forcible suppression of opposition” – The existence of the Democratic Party demonstrates this to be false. If the right is trying to suppress the left, it’s not doing a very good job.
“private economic enterprise under centralized government control” – We *do* have a good deal of private economic enterprise, but is it under centralized government control? The left tends to support economic restrictions more than the right (to make a sweeping, probably unfair generalization), so I don’t think this applies. Besides, our country has much less control of private economic enterprise than, say, Russia. (see http://www.heritage.org/index/countries.cfm)
“belligerent nationalism” – I suppose this depends on your view of American patriotism. “belligerent”? Most of the people I talk to are hardly belligent nationalists, however this is probably too subjective to decide definitively.
“racism” – Again, this is difficult to quantify. Considering the progress we’ve made over the past few decades, I would say that racism is declining. One might cavil with the treatment of illegal immigrants; however the issue there mostly one of beaurocracy and border control, rather than racial discrimination.
“militarism” – It’s true that the US spends a large amount of money on the military. In terms of percentage of GDP, it up there, though there are a good number of countries with a higher percentage spend than us. (see https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html) Does this make us militaristic? I don’t think this is an easy question to answer, but saying “yes” is jumping to conclusions just as quickly as saying “no”.
So the US is not fascist, not on the verge of becoming fascist, and religion is not a clear threat to us. What’s there to stop?
To take somewhat of a contrary view: arguments can be made that:
We have one party control-The Corporatist Party, of which one wing is slightly more liberal than the other, but still corporatist.
Dissent and opposition are being muzzled: ask those Iraq war protestors being tracked and surveilled by military-intelligence assets.
Private enterprise under government control: this is what the telecom-immunity thing is about. The 4th Amendment says the gov’t needs warrants, so they have the telecoms do it for them, take the products, and provide immunity to the telecoms that broke the law. Checkmate for the rule of law.
Belligerant nationalism? I would say that Republican candidates for President discussing and advocating the use of nuclear weapons on Iran, on national TV, fits the bill.
Militarism? The US spends more on its military than the next 15 nations on the list combined. While there may be those with a higher percentage, in real numbers there’s no contest.
Does it walk like a duck, swim like a duck, and quack like a duck? If so, it’s probably a duck.
Is the US a fascist nation? Not necessarily, not yet…but there is cause for concern.
The Democratic and Republican parties are two individual political parties. Maybe you find their goals too similar, but the definition of a political party doesn’t require seperate parties to have entirely seperate goals. The existance of two parties in and of itself refutes the “one-party state” argument, no matter how similar they may be.
There are a large number of protestors of the war in Iraq, and they are quite vocal. If they were being forcibly suppressed, we would hear a lot less from them. If you have sources showing that the government habitually “forcibly suppresses” protesters, I’d be happy to go over them, but such a large accusation needs backing.
While the whole telecom immunity issue does reek of illegality, I think it misses the point of what “private enterprise under government control” is referring to. It is talking about government *controlling* private enterprise, while you have given an example of the government *removing* controls from private enterprise.
I’m curious to hear which candidate for president you think is advocating the use of nuclear weapons on Iran.
It’s true that the US spends the most money on the military of any country; however measuring military expenditures in total currency spent can be deceiving: notice that Japan spends more than Saudi Arabia. (see http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm)
If it walks like a flamingo, swims like a penguin, and quacks like a goose I’m reluctant to call it a duck. I’m not too concerned.
Things are scary right now, but they’ve actually been worse — especially for those who weren’t white, rich or male.
I remember Steve Gilliard’s perspective. He’d see people hollering “America is ruined forever! We’re in an dictatorship and can’t overthrow it” and say that only some white upper-middle-class person could honestly think that. Black people’s lives before the ’60s sucked by about every measure imaginable compared to today. (They REALLY sucked prior to 1865.) And of course women didn’t have the vote — or the right to own and run businesses, in many places. The law was designed to keep them as chattel of either their fathers or husbands. This changed, and it wasn’t because of cynical people saying that it couldn’t be done, either.
What really bugged Gilly was that he felt that the people who were busy yelling “It’s a dictatorship and there’s nothing you can do about it!” were actually looking for reasons to not do anything, and to soothe their consciences for not doing anything. Working — actually working — in politics takes lots of effort, long-term effort. This is daunting for most of us. If you can convince yourself that nothing can be so why try, then you give yourself an ‘out’ for not trying.
I disagree passionately. What is so scary about that picture? The cross? Tell me, what’s so threatening to you about the cross. Is it that fact that God actually died for you because we are all sinners, meaning we are not perfect? I don’t see what’s so scary about it. This country was based on Christianity. Do you know what the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution states?
“We hold these TRUTHS to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights…”
(emphasis mine)
Those men fought for their rights to worship God. Please don’t forget the roots of this nation.
What’s so scary about Christianity anyway? The fact that we believe there’s a God that loves us so much he came down to earth as a man and died for us? That He allows us in to Heaven if we simply accept Him?
It looks to me like when this country started, it was better off morally than today.
Loeg, you made a conclusion based on supportive evidence YOU MADE alone which supports a stronger argument to the contrary. RonD is right on!
There is a distinction that needs to be made between Patriots of the establishment, and Patriots who are TRUE patriots. William Cooper is a TRUE Patriot, and he was murdered by the establishment.
IF you are unfammilliar with the Patriot Act or what was desired for Patriot Act 2 those speak for themselves as to the true nature of the beast. The known budget for military spending is astronomical, the UNKNOWN black budget is out of this world, litterally, and yes, I mean litterally. Don’t bother to remember 3 TRILLION went missing by the PENTAGON, the day before sept.11, 911, Ronald Dumsfeld announced it publicly.
The mind control operations within this century in our country began with Operation Cloverleaf/Op Artichoke, MK-Ultra, Op Monarch and on and on. These are based on ancient burrial rituals, and are the most insidious inhuman violations of humanity I could NEVER have dreamed. My bubble was burst when I discovered I was living with a victim for 6 years (a long story unto itself). Satanic/sadistic ritual abuse is carried out on large sections of the population with the ultimate goals for total dominion through behavior modification. The secret government and itel is comprised essentially of many citizens who are victims of these programs, being used as a secret army.
If you are aware of and understand what our own “leaders” have done in secret and in collusion with other vested global interests (Trilaterals, FEMA, Bohemian Grove), you may never dare to dream of what evils they have done, you might would have a nervous breakdown if you did. But face the truth we must, there is no other way out.
Messenger, there is no religion higher than TRUTH. BTW, Monarch Slaves are used as Messengers. This country was also founded on SLAVERY, lest you forget this, both overt and hidden. Now the hidden one, the Illuminati formula, has been militarized.
The 3 Truths
Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.6 (See also Qur’an 17.85)
“Truth is victorious, never untruth.
Truth is the way;
Truth is the goal of life,
Reached by the sages who
are free from self-will.”
2. Dhammapada 1:5-6 (The Twin Verses of Buddha)
“Hatred does not cease by
hatred in this world.
By love alone it ceases.
This is an eternal law.”
“Those who forget that death will
come to all are caught up in conflicts.
For those that remember,
Quarrels come to an end.”
3. Old Testament, The Christian Bible, Psalms 46:10
“Be still (desist), and know that I am God. (Be quiet, and listen to your heart, listen to the god within)
True Love will not try to control & manipulate. True Love will support freedom from the bonds of ignorance, and encourage individual sovereignty.
True Love will empower an individual and work in unselfish ways to promote freedom for others. Most importantly, True Love is discerning, confident, unselfish, humble, persevering & deeply compassionate for the suffering of others…
At first, we will become disturbed. But if our love outweighs our arrogance & ignorance, we can have a chance for true love & freedom.”
ok i like this because its the American flag but also…. it you look at the stars you can see a Cross =]]! A cross our Savor Jesus Christ was upon. I just think this is great! thank youu..
Nicoley, you missed the whole point of this argument. I’m sorry, but if you were going for irony or satire on anyone else’s points, it was poorly done.
I for one think Sinclair Lewis was wrong, because I see fascism today in the Democratic party, as much as I hate to say it. George Carlin called it “smiley-faced fascism,” I call it political correctness.
I love how there are all of these comments by people who act so high and mighty like there “conspiracy theories” or what not by political figures are spot-on to how America is today. It is so tragic that the true, pure lov for this nation UNDER GOD has all but been vanquished. And don’t bother saying how leaders of today destroyed America. It’s liberal ignorant nonsense guided by the devil that are annhilating this country. Christ is the reasin for our success as a naion and the longer we continue to leave him out, the faster we will fall. This picture in no way illustrates fascism. Research that word before implying such. God. BlessM America.
I love how there are all of these comments by people who act so high and mighty like there “conspiracy theories”, or what not, by political figures are spot-on to how America is today. It is so tragic that the true, pure love for this nation UNDER GOD has all but been vanquished. And don’t bother saying how leaders of today destroyed America. It’s liberal, ignorant nonsense, guided by the devil, that are annihilating this country. Christ is the reason for our success as a nation, and the longer we continue to leave Him out, the faster we will fall. This picture in no way illustrates fascism. Research that word before implying such. God.Bless.America.
First point, this isn’t a democracy. It’s a republic. Look up what the differences mean.
Second, “Dissent and opposition are being muzzled: ask those Iraq war protestors being tracked and surveilled by military-intelligence assets.” No one in the military, in there right minds would waste their valuable time on you. You’re not as important as you think you are, you stuck up bastard.
Third, “if you don’t like it, get the f*ck out of my country.
-proud american”
That’s just some dumbass red necks who listen to Sean Hannity. So, they shouldn’t be paid any attention.
Here’s what I like to say to all of you, if I could quote Dirty Harry “Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.”
February 16, 2008 at 11:32 pm
I have to disagree.
For one thing, a distinction must be, and to a large extent is, made between religious values *guiding* political decision-making, and state-sponsored religion. If religious observance were mandated? Not cool. If one’s religion says that abortion is murder, and thus one feels the need to outlaw it? Acceptable – it would be absurd to outlaw religion as a source of morals. (And to make things perfectly clear, I am not anti-abortion.)
Now it still is possible that an abundance of religion-inspired policies could lead to a suboptimal state for our country. I would agree, inasmuch as I don’t subscribe to all of the views of the religious right. However, this does not necessarily equate to “fascism”. To quote Webster’s New World Dictionary (second college edition), “fascism” is “a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized government control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, etc.” I think it’s hard to make a reasonable argument that the United States fits this description. To go through step by step:
“rigid one-party dictatorship” – The US is not a one-party state by any means. While the right certainly would like to gain dominance, so would the left. And while one might quibble with the President’s policies, our system of government, with all of its checks and balances, is hardly a dictatorship, nor is a drastic change in the system imminent.
“forcible suppression of opposition” – The existence of the Democratic Party demonstrates this to be false. If the right is trying to suppress the left, it’s not doing a very good job.
“private economic enterprise under centralized government control” – We *do* have a good deal of private economic enterprise, but is it under centralized government control? The left tends to support economic restrictions more than the right (to make a sweeping, probably unfair generalization), so I don’t think this applies. Besides, our country has much less control of private economic enterprise than, say, Russia. (see http://www.heritage.org/index/countries.cfm)
“belligerent nationalism” – I suppose this depends on your view of American patriotism. “belligerent”? Most of the people I talk to are hardly belligent nationalists, however this is probably too subjective to decide definitively.
“racism” – Again, this is difficult to quantify. Considering the progress we’ve made over the past few decades, I would say that racism is declining. One might cavil with the treatment of illegal immigrants; however the issue there mostly one of beaurocracy and border control, rather than racial discrimination.
“militarism” – It’s true that the US spends a large amount of money on the military. In terms of percentage of GDP, it up there, though there are a good number of countries with a higher percentage spend than us. (see https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html) Does this make us militaristic? I don’t think this is an easy question to answer, but saying “yes” is jumping to conclusions just as quickly as saying “no”.
So the US is not fascist, not on the verge of becoming fascist, and religion is not a clear threat to us. What’s there to stop?
February 18, 2008 at 12:14 am
To take somewhat of a contrary view: arguments can be made that:
We have one party control-The Corporatist Party, of which one wing is slightly more liberal than the other, but still corporatist.
Dissent and opposition are being muzzled: ask those Iraq war protestors being tracked and surveilled by military-intelligence assets.
Private enterprise under government control: this is what the telecom-immunity thing is about. The 4th Amendment says the gov’t needs warrants, so they have the telecoms do it for them, take the products, and provide immunity to the telecoms that broke the law. Checkmate for the rule of law.
Belligerant nationalism? I would say that Republican candidates for President discussing and advocating the use of nuclear weapons on Iran, on national TV, fits the bill.
Militarism? The US spends more on its military than the next 15 nations on the list combined. While there may be those with a higher percentage, in real numbers there’s no contest.
Does it walk like a duck, swim like a duck, and quack like a duck? If so, it’s probably a duck.
Is the US a fascist nation? Not necessarily, not yet…but there is cause for concern.
-Best Regards
February 18, 2008 at 1:08 am
I don’t find much of your argument convincing.
The Democratic and Republican parties are two individual political parties. Maybe you find their goals too similar, but the definition of a political party doesn’t require seperate parties to have entirely seperate goals. The existance of two parties in and of itself refutes the “one-party state” argument, no matter how similar they may be.
There are a large number of protestors of the war in Iraq, and they are quite vocal. If they were being forcibly suppressed, we would hear a lot less from them. If you have sources showing that the government habitually “forcibly suppresses” protesters, I’d be happy to go over them, but such a large accusation needs backing.
While the whole telecom immunity issue does reek of illegality, I think it misses the point of what “private enterprise under government control” is referring to. It is talking about government *controlling* private enterprise, while you have given an example of the government *removing* controls from private enterprise.
I’m curious to hear which candidate for president you think is advocating the use of nuclear weapons on Iran.
It’s true that the US spends the most money on the military of any country; however measuring military expenditures in total currency spent can be deceiving: notice that Japan spends more than Saudi Arabia. (see http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm)
If it walks like a flamingo, swims like a penguin, and quacks like a goose I’m reluctant to call it a duck. I’m not too concerned.
February 20, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Things are scary right now, but they’ve actually been worse — especially for those who weren’t white, rich or male.
I remember Steve Gilliard’s perspective. He’d see people hollering “America is ruined forever! We’re in an dictatorship and can’t overthrow it” and say that only some white upper-middle-class person could honestly think that. Black people’s lives before the ’60s sucked by about every measure imaginable compared to today. (They REALLY sucked prior to 1865.) And of course women didn’t have the vote — or the right to own and run businesses, in many places. The law was designed to keep them as chattel of either their fathers or husbands. This changed, and it wasn’t because of cynical people saying that it couldn’t be done, either.
What really bugged Gilly was that he felt that the people who were busy yelling “It’s a dictatorship and there’s nothing you can do about it!” were actually looking for reasons to not do anything, and to soothe their consciences for not doing anything. Working — actually working — in politics takes lots of effort, long-term effort. This is daunting for most of us. If you can convince yourself that nothing can be so why try, then you give yourself an ‘out’ for not trying.
February 20, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Oh, and this is O/T, but Jo6pac told me you’d like it:
http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/holy-flying-wind-turbines-batman/
February 20, 2008 at 5:39 pm
No wonder we must be living in interesting times, especially when you hear (virtually in the same breath) about “Christian Persecution!” and churches being used for anti-Semitic rallies….
October 23, 2008 at 11:42 am
I disagree passionately. What is so scary about that picture? The cross? Tell me, what’s so threatening to you about the cross. Is it that fact that God actually died for you because we are all sinners, meaning we are not perfect? I don’t see what’s so scary about it. This country was based on Christianity. Do you know what the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution states?
“We hold these TRUTHS to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights…”
(emphasis mine)
Those men fought for their rights to worship God. Please don’t forget the roots of this nation.
What’s so scary about Christianity anyway? The fact that we believe there’s a God that loves us so much he came down to earth as a man and died for us? That He allows us in to Heaven if we simply accept Him?
It looks to me like when this country started, it was better off morally than today.
Messenger
November 1, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Loeg, you made a conclusion based on supportive evidence YOU MADE alone which supports a stronger argument to the contrary. RonD is right on!
There is a distinction that needs to be made between Patriots of the establishment, and Patriots who are TRUE patriots. William Cooper is a TRUE Patriot, and he was murdered by the establishment.
IF you are unfammilliar with the Patriot Act or what was desired for Patriot Act 2 those speak for themselves as to the true nature of the beast. The known budget for military spending is astronomical, the UNKNOWN black budget is out of this world, litterally, and yes, I mean litterally. Don’t bother to remember 3 TRILLION went missing by the PENTAGON, the day before sept.11, 911, Ronald Dumsfeld announced it publicly.
The mind control operations within this century in our country began with Operation Cloverleaf/Op Artichoke, MK-Ultra, Op Monarch and on and on. These are based on ancient burrial rituals, and are the most insidious inhuman violations of humanity I could NEVER have dreamed. My bubble was burst when I discovered I was living with a victim for 6 years (a long story unto itself). Satanic/sadistic ritual abuse is carried out on large sections of the population with the ultimate goals for total dominion through behavior modification. The secret government and itel is comprised essentially of many citizens who are victims of these programs, being used as a secret army.
If you are aware of and understand what our own “leaders” have done in secret and in collusion with other vested global interests (Trilaterals, FEMA, Bohemian Grove), you may never dare to dream of what evils they have done, you might would have a nervous breakdown if you did. But face the truth we must, there is no other way out.
Messenger, there is no religion higher than TRUTH. BTW, Monarch Slaves are used as Messengers. This country was also founded on SLAVERY, lest you forget this, both overt and hidden. Now the hidden one, the Illuminati formula, has been militarized.
The 3 Truths
Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.6 (See also Qur’an 17.85)
“Truth is victorious, never untruth.
Truth is the way;
Truth is the goal of life,
Reached by the sages who
are free from self-will.”
2. Dhammapada 1:5-6 (The Twin Verses of Buddha)
“Hatred does not cease by
hatred in this world.
By love alone it ceases.
This is an eternal law.”
“Those who forget that death will
come to all are caught up in conflicts.
For those that remember,
Quarrels come to an end.”
3. Old Testament, The Christian Bible, Psalms 46:10
“Be still (desist), and know that I am God. (Be quiet, and listen to your heart, listen to the god within)
True Love will not try to control & manipulate. True Love will support freedom from the bonds of ignorance, and encourage individual sovereignty.
True Love will empower an individual and work in unselfish ways to promote freedom for others. Most importantly, True Love is discerning, confident, unselfish, humble, persevering & deeply compassionate for the suffering of others…
At first, we will become disturbed. But if our love outweighs our arrogance & ignorance, we can have a chance for true love & freedom.”
November 24, 2008 at 3:25 pm
no i think we are still a DEMOCRACY and cristianity is against…rueling…the…world…
December 5, 2008 at 7:20 am
ok i like this because its the American flag but also…. it you look at the stars you can see a Cross =]]! A cross our Savor Jesus Christ was upon. I just think this is great! thank youu..
-Nicoley- =]
December 11, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Nicoley, you missed the whole point of this argument. I’m sorry, but if you were going for irony or satire on anyone else’s points, it was poorly done.
I for one think Sinclair Lewis was wrong, because I see fascism today in the Democratic party, as much as I hate to say it. George Carlin called it “smiley-faced fascism,” I call it political correctness.
Call a fool a fool, Sorry, Lewis.
December 16, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Christianity was, and always will be against the ruling power structure. Jesus would not wear a flag pin, I promise you.
January 30, 2009 at 11:13 pm
I love how there are all of these comments by people who act so high and mighty like there “conspiracy theories” or what not by political figures are spot-on to how America is today. It is so tragic that the true, pure lov for this nation UNDER GOD has all but been vanquished. And don’t bother saying how leaders of today destroyed America. It’s liberal ignorant nonsense guided by the devil that are annhilating this country. Christ is the reasin for our success as a naion and the longer we continue to leave him out, the faster we will fall. This picture in no way illustrates fascism. Research that word before implying such. God. BlessM America.
January 30, 2009 at 11:15 pm
I love how there are all of these comments by people who act so high and mighty like there “conspiracy theories”, or what not, by political figures are spot-on to how America is today. It is so tragic that the true, pure love for this nation UNDER GOD has all but been vanquished. And don’t bother saying how leaders of today destroyed America. It’s liberal, ignorant nonsense, guided by the devil, that are annihilating this country. Christ is the reason for our success as a nation, and the longer we continue to leave Him out, the faster we will fall. This picture in no way illustrates fascism. Research that word before implying such. God.Bless.America.
February 26, 2009 at 3:11 am
if you don’t like it, get the f*ck out of my country.
-proud american
March 10, 2009 at 4:16 pm
First point, this isn’t a democracy. It’s a republic. Look up what the differences mean.
Second, “Dissent and opposition are being muzzled: ask those Iraq war protestors being tracked and surveilled by military-intelligence assets.” No one in the military, in there right minds would waste their valuable time on you. You’re not as important as you think you are, you stuck up bastard.
Third, “if you don’t like it, get the f*ck out of my country.
-proud american”
That’s just some dumbass red necks who listen to Sean Hannity. So, they shouldn’t be paid any attention.
Here’s what I like to say to all of you, if I could quote Dirty Harry “Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.”